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Saul Williams (Part One)

By October 23, 2019January 22nd, 2020Podcast

Host Lola Wright interviews inaugural guest Saul WilliamsWilliams has traveled the world as an artist, activist, and provocateur of deeper and more comprehensive thought patterns. This episode features the first installment of their two-part conversation. They discuss Williams’ evolution out of the faith he was raised in, and his incredible ability to give space and place to the full range of his emotions. They also get into family life, sharing stories of how they dealt with their parents’ evolution when they were younger, and now navigating life and change as parents themselves.

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This “talk” is electronically transcribed. Please excuse any errors or omissions.

Lola Wright: You are more than this meat suit. A feeling lasts 90 seconds. A multiracial, intergenerational, queer, affirming, non-religious pro woman community in the most segregated city in America. Chicago.

Lola Wright: Hello. Welcome to And This Is Bodhi. I’m your host, Lola Wright. This is our inaugural episode. If you’re not already familiar with Bodhi, we are a conscious community based out of Chicago serving people in Chicago and around the world. The big idea is to support people in shifting out of fear-based patterns into higher states where creativity may be accessed, where freedom may be accessed. I’d love to have you join us in that commitment.

Lola Wright: You know the word Bodhi means, in Sanskrit, awakening. It is said that the Buddha awakened under the Bodhi tree and what we really affirm is that awakening is for the many, not the few. So it’s not just a few saints, sages, mystics and masters. You, brilliant one, are here in service of your own awakening. So thank you for being on this journey with me. When I began imagining what could be created in this conversational setting, I had a vision for my most desired guests. Like who could that be that I would want to explore deeply around these frameworks of freedom, liberation, love, in a way that both confronts our sleepy states, our status quo, our easily digestible politic. Like who would I be in conversation with that I think would be of great service to you as our listener? The top of that list was poet, artist, activist, incredible musician, Saul Williams. And as this incredible, incredible universe would have it, he came through Chicago as we were beginning to form And This Is Bodhi.

Lola Wright: I sat down with Saul Williams and it really was exactly what I had hoped. It was incredibly fulfilling to my soul. I trust it will be for yours also. Expect to hear expletives. Expect to hear language that may be deeply confronting. Give yourself the gift of moving through discomfort before you turn this conversation off. If you find yourself hearing things that you may not agree with, would you be willing to just take a deep breath and sit through the conversation? Saul Williams is a brilliant being that has traveled the world as really a provocateur of deeper and more comprehensive thought patterns. He really is someone that is pressing the dimensions of consciousness beyond our sort of inertia. Saul Williams grew up outside of New York city and has been a great, great inspiration for me and I trust that you will get just a load of wisdom out of this conversation. Enjoy.

Lola Wright: I just really want to thank you for the being that you are on the planet. Like who you are for me, the lens through which I perceive you is, just the most glorious demonstration of full self-expression. Like I see you as someone who allows your full being to be used in service of freedom, in service of liberation, in service of love, in service of truth, and so I just really thank you for being here.

Saul Williams: That’s very kind [laughter].

Lola Wright: Yeah. It’s all true. Yeah.

Saul Williams: It’s very kind, not exactly what it feels like on the inside. Yes. I mean it certainly, has been the calling in the prayer often times, use me.

Lola Wright: Mm hmm [affirmative]. Based on some of the things you shared at Thalia Hall last night, it occurred to me that… like you are in a transition.

Saul Williams: That is exactly where I am. This transition is, is, is simply an expansion of the craft so to speak. I have been working on a project, I conceptualized the project about seven years ago and was like, this is what you’re going to do. I decided one, that I wanted to do a graphic novel. Which meant that I was ready and willing to collaborate because illustrators are necessary for that. Two, subject matter wise I wanted to find a way that I could talk about all of the things that I see when I scroll my timeline internally, externally, all the things that are of interest without preaching. And then I knew that in order to do that, for me, part of the writing process is, you know, is related to my relationship to music. Sometimes I need more sounds than I need words. And I’m like, well all the music will go in connection to that because we’re going to make it a musical, as well.

Lola Wright: [laughter]

Saul Williams: And so it… So I just wanted to use everything, all, all the things that I need. Like I might try to escape a poem by working on the song. No, that song is going back into… we’re going to use everything. That’s why I say it’s waste management, you know. And so now I’m about to direct this film that I’ve been developing for seven years. Working on as a graphic novel and then the final step has been turning that script for the graphic novel, to turn that into a screenplay and next will be to direct.

Lola Wright: And it’s going to take place in Rwanda?

Saul Williams: That’s where I’m shooting. The story takes place in Burundi.

Lola Wright: Okay.

Saul Williams: But yes, I’m shooting in Rwanda.

Lola Wright:Okay. And is your wife involved?

Saul Williams: Yes, my wife is a creative director of the project. Much of it is inspired by our own conversations and so my wife’s name is Anisia Uzeyman and she is a director. She um, came out of theater like myself and for this project she’s agreed to be the DP.

Lola Wright: Cool.

Saul Williams: Yeah.

Lola Wright: I read in an interview that you had done that she actually gave you a different perspective or appreciation on the United States.

Saul Williams: Oh, certainly.

Lola Wright: That you didn’t previously have. I’m curious to know more about what that means.

Saul Williams: Yeah. My wife’s first feature, the name of that film is Dreamstates and she shot it in 35 States over the course of, I dunno, 40 days and it’s the story of two people that meet in a dream before they meet in real life. I play in the film and I scored it. She plays in the film as well. I think it’s actually the first feature ever shot entirely on iPhone.

Lola Wright: Hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: She shot it with the iPhone 4S. And so it premiered in 2016 at the LA independent film festival.

Saul Williams: Anisia is born in Rwanda and then schooled in Europe. And so when we did this tour, when she was filming the film Dreamstates, yes, I was able to experience a great deal of America through her eyes. Mind you, I had toured before and a lot throughout the States, but never actually with someone that wasn’t from the states. And so when you go to Texas with someone that’s not from the states and they’re like, Holy shit, that’s a lot of flags. They’re really wearing those boots. Whoa. Another flag. Whoa, why are these people all have flags? They really wear those hats and boots here. What’s going on? You know, like it’s, it’s, you know, and that’s Texas. When you drive through a lot of countries, you don’t necessarily see their flag-waving every time you turn a corner –

Lola Wright: Right.

Saul Williams: – from the fronts of houses and stuff like that.

Saul Williams: So the sort of patriotism that is, you know, thrown at people and practiced in this country is a shock oftentimes for an outsider.

Lola Wright: I read something that you put out that was like, it says something like, I’m not really into nationalism sometimes. And I was curious about the sometimes.

Saul Williams: The sometimes is that I also have to acknowledge that black nationalism exists.

Lola Wright: Yeah. Got it.

Saul Williams: And I’ve learned a lot from black nationalists.

Lola Wright: Got it, got it, got it, got it. Yeah.

Saul Williams: But in terms of the country politic, no.

Lola Wright: Yeah. Your father pastored a Baptist church where you grew up.

Saul Williams: Indeed. Yes.

Lola Wright: And by the time you set out to Morehouse, you no longer identified as Christian?

Saul Williams: Not by the time I set out.

Lola Wright: Okay.

Saul Williams: When I set out to Morehouse, I mean I’ll never forget, my freshman week at Morehouse, my family drove me to school. And so the pastor I think it’s called Antioch Baptist church, which is a huge church down in Atlanta. They invited my dad to preach that Sunday and I’m starting school the next day.

Lola Wright: [laughter]

Saul Williams: And so my dad, you know, did like his going away, my son’s going to college and son from the pulpit, you know, type of service.

Lola Wright: [laughter].

Saul Williams: [laughter]

Lola Wright: Yeah, I’m like knowing my kid’s reaction to doing those things.

Saul Williams: Yeah, yeah. When you call them out from the pulpit and the whole nine. Yeah. I had one of those dads and one of those experiences my first week and so I was already on the cusp. I had a lot of questions and I don’t mean that in a naive sense. I was challenging my dad and those around him because my dad was in a cipher and circle of ministers, you know what I’m saying? So I grew up around a lot of ministers and you know, who were well dressed and well spoken and you know, highly versed in a lot and who were also active in the community cause my parents were both activists and there was a lot that was going on in our community. The whole like Tawana Brawley thing, you know, fight the power.

Lola Wright: Yeah.

Saul Williams: That all happened in Newburgh and Wappingers Falls.

Lola Wright: Hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: Those, those a huge rallies for, for Tawana Brawley, most of them started at my dad’s church.

Lola Wright: Wow.

Saul Williams: And so I remember like being in my dad’s office, like with my dad and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton –

Lola Wright: Hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: – and all these people. You know what I’m saying? Like I was in that circle of the hierarchy of you know, religious upbringing.

Lola Wright: Right.

Saul Williams: Right. Not just someone that went to church, but someone who was in the back rooms of, of….

Lola Wright: Well also I just want to acknowledge that especially depending on your cultural tradition or whatever. Not all churches are organizing centers.

Saul Williams: Right.

Lola Wright: That’s something that’s very distinct – I’d say specifically to the black community.

Saul Williams: Exactly. And so, yeah, my dad worked with Dr. King, with Dr. Wyatt T Walker and was very much, you know, our church was part of the organizing that was going on in Newburgh and in New York City. Both of my parents were born and raised in Brooklyn.

Saul Williams: And so from before I left, this is still in response to your question. Even when I was 14 I remember being in my dad’s, uh office with a bunch of, you know, all these ministers and they would jokingly be sitting back very comfortably, all these men talking about whether they would ever allow a woman to preach from their pulpit.

Lola Wright: Mmm [affirmative].
Saul Williams: You know, this was a popular discussion in the mid eighties you know, and what have you, “I don’t even know.”

Lola Wright: [laughter]

Saul Williams: Yeah. You know, like they, you hear these guys with their, you know, that beautiful speaking voices and what have you. And there was nah, I don’t know about that. And, and I had the freedom and was raised in a way that I can be like, but you’re stupid. Why wouldn’t you, you know, like I was able to challenge them –

Lola Wright: Mm hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: – and dah, dah, dah, dah. I was a dude.

Lola Wright: Right, right, right.

Saul Williams: So, you know, was my dad’s only son, so I was allowed to be in the room. I was allowed to challenge him. I was allowed to call them stupid. I was allowed to push back as much as I wanted, and they’d be like, you guys are crazy. I didn’t necessarily have the vocabulary to say patriarchal, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I’d be like, there’s something about what you’re saying that nah, it doesn’t add up.

Lola Wright: But also, I imagine a gift that your father gave you, the freedom and the space to be able to express that.

Saul Williams: Surely.

Lola Wright: Because he could’ve shut that down.

Saul Williams: No, he never shut that down. Anytime I wrote anything for school, he’d be like, you read that this Sunday, yea, I want you to read that.

Lola Wright: Hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: That’s a good report. You’re going to read it this Sunday.

Lola Wright: That’s cool.

Saul Williams: You know? And even when I started writing poetry about my decision, or not even, it wasn’t, it wasn’t a decision to leave the church. It was just a better understanding of what the fuck was going on.

Lola Wright: Mm hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: And I had gained the vocabulary to say, you know, the patriarchal institutional bababababa dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. I was able to like put these words together at a certain point and he was still like, I want you to read that poem.

Lola Wright: That’s amazing.

Saul Williams: I want to do a poetry reading at the church.

Lola Wright: So that’s a pretty alternative perspective in that environment.

Saul Williams: Well, let me say that I gained my courage once again freshman week. So my dad gave me that sermon, right? And then I went to my first history class and Dr. Leroy Davis, um, walked into the first history class and blew my whole fucking wig off the first day.

Lola Wright: Hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: I’ll never forget this because I taught Sunday school.

Lola Wright: Right.

Saul Williams: Right, and all this shit. When I was 12, I started teaching Sunday school.

Lola Wright: Mm hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: I was well versed. I was always really clear on the fact that like, people will be like, are you following in your dad’s footstep? And I’d be like, no, my calling is the stage, not the pulpit.

Lola Wright: [laughter].

Saul Williams: I, you know, I had my like very like –

Lola Wright: . I know there’s only a small, small line between those two.

Saul Williams: But I was very clear in it and there was never any confusion. Like the whole church is like, this is our actor son.

Lola Wright: [laughter].

Saul Williams: You know what I’m saying? Like, Hey, they knew what was up.

Lola Wright: Mm hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: You know. But anyway, Dr. Leroy Davis was, um walking into my first history class and I was going to be a history major. History and drama. I changed it to philosophy and drama.

Lola Wright: Mm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: He says, “All right, now how many of you brothers are Christians?” And so the majority of the class raised their hands.

Lola Wright: Right.

Saul Williams: There are also a number of like cats from the nation of Islam and what have you in the class as well who do not raise their hands. Right? Um, but the majority of the class, because Morehouse really operates really as if it’s a Christian school –

Lola Wright: Right, right.

Saul Williams: – the same way this country operates as if it’s a, and it’s a fundamentalist nation, but we’ll get to that. So all these people raised their hands and he’s like, “All right, so tell me who wrote the first five books of the Bible.” And so all these kids like me who had been Sunday school teachers and should raise their hands, you know? And they’re like, well, those are the books of Moses. You know, those are the books of Moses. He wrote the first five books of the Bible. Like, Oh yeah, yeah. He’s like, “So you mean to tell me he dies in the second book and keeps on narrating after his death?”

Lola Wright: [laughter].

Saul Williams: He was like, “The bullshit they teach you in Sunday school isn’t going to fly in this classroom.”

Lola Wright: Wow.

Saul Williams: And that was the silence in the class after that. It was like, Oh shit.

Lola Wright: Wow.

Saul Williams: And so from then on I was like, what the fuck was I think like [laughter].

Lola Wright: I know, right.

Saul Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s all it took was that moment –

Lola Wright: Yeah.

Saul Williams: – that fueled my, my….because it wasn’t a disinterest that was happening. In fact, it heightened my interest in finding out and engaging with elements of the truth that could not, or were not being taught in the religious institution. That was my upbringing.

Lola Wright: Mm hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: You know? And so there were other books I wanted to read about the books that I had already read. There was other information, there was, there were things that I always felt that I understood but couldn’t understand why it wasn’t being taught that way. I couldn’t understand why so many, you know, rabid misinterpretations were being used. And then at the end of the day I was just like, no, I can’t identify as Christian. Or if I identify as Christian, then I have to say that all these motherfuckers are not.

Lola Wright: Right. Right, right, right, right.

Saul Williams: You know? And then I’m like, well, Jesus wasn’t, what is this bullshit actually?

Lola Wright: Which actually is one of my favorite lyrics in your most recent album.

Saul Williams: What’s that?

Lola Wright: Jesus wouldn’t be caught dead in your church!

Saul Williams: [laughter]

Lola Wright: Like, I must post that once a week on my Insta Story. And I think people are like, okay, we got it. But that feels important to me.

Saul Williams: Yeah! I mean, yeah. But I’ve always been stuck on that idea of just like, like I said, I believe that we really live in a Christian fundamentalist nation where these ideas are projected. And it’s crazy that where we’ve been at war for the past 20 years and I’m like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, do you really think…..In another album I say, would Jesus Christ come back American, you know?

Lola Wright: Mm hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: But if he’s Iraqi and here again, you know what I’m saying? Like what the fuck are you thinking? You really think he would show up and you’re texting church, in a pair of boots, like praise the Lord.

Lola Wright: With a flag on your pulpit.

Saul Williams: With a flag on your pulpit. Do you really think that?

Lola Wright: Mm hmm [affirmative]. I feel like a core tenant of your work –

Saul Williams: Mm hmm [affirmative].

Lola Wright: – has been, you’re constantly speaking to the occupation of fear.

Saul Williams: Mm [affirmative].

Lola Wright: Right? Like you’re constantly calling that out. And I think one of the things that you do so brilliantly and very uniquely is you have a very wide access to your emotional body, to your feeling body. And I think a lot of people live really from the neck up. And so you, you give yourself permission to feel fury, to feel anger, not to anesthetize that.

Saul Williams: Mm [affirmative].

Lola Wright: Not to go down a downer rabbit hole. But like, I get really irritated every time the Dalai Lama tweets about how bad anger is. I’m like, I understand what he’s saying. What he’s saying is unconscious anger is destructive, –

Saul Williams: Mm hmm, yeah.

Lola Wright: – but he never really qualifies it in that way. And I actually think that part of what we’re living in is like really toxic anger.

Saul Williams: Mm hmm [affirmative].

Lola Wright: That people do not know how to feel and move. And you know, one of the things I talk a lot about is actually feeling states when they are allowed space and place, they are just like contractions.

Saul Williams: Yeah.

Lola Wright: They move and breathe and have a 92nd life.

Saul Williams: Right.

Lola Wright: But if you don’t feel them that calcify in your body –

Saul Williams: That is the problem.

Lola Wright: – and then become a mood.

Saul Williams: Yes, exactly.

Lola Wright: And so we have a real moody society.

Saul Williams: Right.

Lola Wright: And so I’m curious like what enabled you to have access to that range of emotional intelligence? And then, do you find yourself having to explain to people that actually part of your freedom, and these are my words, not your words, but part of your freedom is actually giving yourself permission to feel those, that range?

Saul Williams: Yeah. There’s very modern ways in which we identify these ideas, such as giving yourself permission, right? That expression, giving yourself permission.

Lola Wright: Mm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: So I didn’t have those terms to think in as I have been developing, you know, it’s a modern way of expressing.

Lola Wright: Yes, yes, yes.

Saul Williams: Okay. One, I would say that like, you know, on one hand I’ve been talking about the toxicity of religious institutions. On the other hand, I would say that my parents did very well in terms of allowing me the, the space to explore and find myself without putting stops on it.

Lola Wright: Hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: Like if I cried, I never heard boys don’t cry.

Lola Wright: Mm [affirmative].

Saul Williams:You know what I’m saying? I’d heard it everywhere around me, but in my house –

Lola Wright: Ok, but how do you think your parents knew that?

Saul Williams: I don’t know. My dad. I mean I have this story that I like with my dad. It always blows my mind. I wanted to develop this um, homophobic thing when I was like eight or something.

Lola Wright: Hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: Right. And what I mean is I came home and I’m eight and I tell my parents I want to be an actor when I grow up. I’ve decided. And my dad is like, I’ll support you as an actor if you get a law degree. My mother’s like ah, so you should do your first school report on Paul Robeson. And then my dad is like, and you can’t be an actor if you don’t know how to tap, cause my parents are from, you know –

Lola Wright: That era.

Saul Williams: – the forties [laughter].

Lola Wright: Right.

Saul Williams: If you wanted to be an actor, you got to know how to tap [laughter].

Lola Wright: I mean that’s like, I think, You should actually go back to NYU Tisch, and that should be like the name of your first course [laughter].

Saul Williams: [laughter] So, so he signs me up for a tap class in Poughkeepsie. We got to drive out to Poughkeepsie and I’m going to take this tap class and I go to the first class and they’re like, no, you need this black leotard and these shoes and dah, dah, dah, dah. And I’m the only guy in the class. And I’d come home and I had heard this stuff in school, but I’d never tried it at home. Right. And so they’re like, how was tap class? I was like, I don’t know.

Lola Wright: [laughter].

Saul Williams: Kind of makes me feel like a faggot. I’m eight years old.

Lola Wright: And you had access to that word [inaudible].

Saul Williams: Of course I did, and I went to public school. Of course, I had access. I mean, come on. Who are we kidding?

Lola Wright: Mm hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: And so, and so, my dad freezes and he’s like, “I never need to hear that coming out of your mouth.” He’s like you told me you’re an actor, so right now you need to acknowledge and be ready for the fact that you will always be surrounded by people who have different sexual orientations.

Lola Wright: Mm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: Always like your godfather, like your sister’s godfather.

Lola Wright: Mm hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: He was just like, no, no, no, no. You’ve always been surrounded.

Lola Wright: Mm. That generation, please correct me if you think I’m totally out of pocket, but like that generation of faith leaders, especially in the black church, I don’t feel like it was as fundamentalist as it has become.

Saul Williams: Well –

Lola Wright: Do you think that’s a fair statement?

Saul Williams: There’s also this like sort of Mad Men idea of masculinity that was prevalent among that generation as well. My dad died in 2003 and my mom and dad were married for, I don’t know, 30 something years. But when they did eventually split, it had also something to do with the fact that it was the second time that my mom had caught my dad in a relationship with another man.

Lola Wright: Mmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: So, so, um, –

Lola Wright: And I’m imagining that was all closeted.

Saul Williams: So yes. And that’s what I want to say about that generation as well, is that there was a lot of hypocrisy around as well. In this situation that I brought up. I would say that what I love about that moment with my dad is that, you know, there’s always moments with your children or with people like this is the opening, if you see it right at this time, you know, it’s like acupuncture.

Lola Wright: Yes!

Saul Williams: It’s like right between that, that’s the spot.

Lola Wright: I mean, I’ve had moments as a parent where I’m like, I flipping nailed that.

Saul Williams: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so –

Lola Wright: I totally did that right.

Saul Williams: So my dad hit me. I’m eight years old. He’s just like, [inaudible] he just, [inaudible]. So from that point on, anybody that was being teased in school or whatever, I felt confident enough to be like, what the hell, what’s wrong with you? You know, like it just became clear and evident.

Lola Wright: So, did you –
Saul Williams: He knocked it out right at the perfect time.

Lola Wright: – did you learn that, that your parents had gone through that later in life?

Saul Williams: Yeah, I mean as the youngest and the, the artists flighty in my room, I could play for hours by myself one, I probably could have figured it out bit sooner than I did cause my dad brought me with him and blah blah blah blah to places and I just was like in my own world.

Lola Wright: My parents were married for 22 years and when I was 13 I was like, something is up with my mom.

Saul Williams: Mm [affirmative].

Lola Wright: And she kept going on these weekend trips with her “best friend.”

Saul Williams: Mm [affirmative].

Lola Wright: I stayed home sick from school one day so that I could read her journal

Saul Williams: Ooooooh.

Lola Wright: – and got very explicit details about my mom’s uh, life.

Saul Williams: [laughter].

Lola Wright: Yeah [laughter].

Saul Williams: My parents knew not to keep no journals [laughter].

Lola Wright: [laughter].

Saul Williams: Me on the other hand, I’ve been an open book for the entirety of my kids lives.

Lola Wright: Me too. Well I would say basically me too, it keeps it much easier.

Saul Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but whoa.

Lola Wright: So with that in mind –

Saul Williams: Yeah.

Lola Wright: – like you say, I’ve been an open book really through your kid’s lives, like –

Saul Williams: Well it’s, that’s only partially true. Um –

Lola Wright: But I mean you’ve been, you’ve been freely expressed is what I hear you say.

Saul Williams: I’ve been freely expressed definitely.

Lola Wright: And I’m imagining that that was important to you. Like that was a value that you stood for.

Saul Williams: You can look at it that way, but it was also just like what it was. I will also add though that at the moment my kids reach adolescence, it then became difficult for me because I feel like I also re encountered my adolescence –

Lola Wright: Mm hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: – you know? And so I’m just like, why are they looking at me like that or whatever it is. Like it’s adolescents. I’ve found it to be more challenging –

Lola Wright: Mm hmm [affirmative].

Saul Williams: – than a, you know, zero through 12.

Lola Wright: Yeah. It’s also funny, I have also have four kids and my two older children are from a previous relationship. My husband and I have two children together and I have this story made up in my mind that if my husband was the father of all four of my children, that I could be more free –

Saul Williams: Oh, I make up those stories sometimes.

Lola Wright: – in relationship with my husband then I can because it would, it’s weird for my older kids to see their mom as a sexual creature –

Saul Williams: Right, right, right. Of course, of course.

Lola Wright: – in relationship with another man.

Saul Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah of course.

Lola Wright: It’s funny how we have all those thoughts, right?

Saul Williams: Yeah, yeah. I mean it’s funny and I, and I know we’re not alone in those thoughts and I know that that there’s truth in that. That is always weird for your kids to see you growing and developing and, and you know, like my daughter might be like, you changed and I’m like, ah, yeah. Hell yeah. I changed.

Lola Wright: [laughter].

Saul Williams: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Lola Wright: One of my favorite parts of that conversation was in hearing Saul really talk about his practice of being with the range of emotion that he experiences, whether it’s fury, whether it’s love. He’s an extraordinary demonstration of how to be with all of the feelings come up in each of us as we navigate this place in space. This time in history. I hope it was of service to you and I hope that until we meet again your in that practice, that you’re in that practice of being with the range of your emotions, knowing that there is really an intentional conscious way of being with the anger, with the sadness, with the fear, with the joy, with the creativity. All of it is welcome here. Thank you again for listening to our inaugural episode of, And this is Bodhi. I’m your host, Lola Wright. I’d love to connect with you on social media.

Lola Wright: Find me @lolapwright. Also check out at Bodhi Chicago, B, O, D H I, Chicago. And if you’re not already connected to Saul Williams, find him at Saul Williams until next time when we explore things like education in the United States of America, the upcoming presidential election, all again with episode two of Saul Williams.

Saul Williams: I mean, that’s really everything. If we can change our educational system, if we can change our educational system and teach true indigenous history, true history of the enslaved Africans that came and you know, take out the supremacist notion and stop talking in terms of the greatness that you know, Europeans brought. Let’s talk about diseases. Let’s talk about, I mean like the germ traveled faster than the bullet.

Lola Wright: Mm hmm.

Saul Williams: Right?

Lola Wright: And this is Bodhi is a production of Bodhi Center. Our funding comes from our incredibly generous contributors. I’m your host, Lola Wright. This podcast is produced by Katie Klocksin with editorial guidance from creative producer Tyler Greene. This episode is engineered by Colin Ashmeed Bobbitt at WBZ Chicago public media studios. Our theme music is by Trey Royal independent music producer.

[Theme Music]

Saul Williams: My parents knew not to keep no journals [laughter].


Bodhi is a conscious community in Chicago, IL. We offer in person and online experiences for people who are ready to transform themselves and their world. Bodhi uses media, education, entertainment, and like-minded community to support transformation.

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